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]\/[esSiah
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12 vs 2: defense
The trend today in a 12 vs 2 war is to attack with a lot of grunts and a cat. ANyway, I have always hated this strategy because both sides end up doing the same thing and it is boring. So I thought it over and came up with a new defense. The main idea is to have a semi-walled, reparable cannon tower gaurding your town and the choke for your grunts behind the cannon. By behind I mean for the cannon to be between where the attacking cat could be and where your grunts would stand ground. He has no way to break your choke without bringing his cat into the cannon's sight. If he tries to attack the cannon with the cat you can repair it safely. If he attacks the peons repairing it he will be hit by the cannon.
I have only created a layout and build order for this at 2. I set the choke point by the gold mine and the cannon tower to the left of this. I see no way to attack this. I up to hold at about 17-19 peons chop the bottom of 2 and start pumping ogres. When they see they cannot attack me they try to choke the front entrance. The chop out makes this useless.
I have only tried this out twice on actual people. The first time was against Yah`mon and the 2nd was against Sky Angel. Both games I won rather easily. Yah'mon tried to break my early choke at the entrance of 2 so I fell back to my cannon tower which was up at about 6 grunts. He then choked the entrance and I chopped out under 2 and ogre rushed him. Sky angel tried to grunt rush me with a cat which was futile and ended abruptly.
It is a cool strategy, with lots of possibilities. Maybe I will post a picture of my layout at 2.
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Thu Nov 07, 2002 3:08 pm |
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Gateway5000
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All they have to do is kill you early. Or upgrade and get ogers before going hold with a scout to make sure u dont rush and your strat is effectively countered. A cat could also counter your strat. They just have to hit soft targets. You may want to try switching it up. Like valk does . he makes 3 grunts at 12 and a cannon and hids his grunts at top to c if they try to break it. And if your not worried about early ot a cat is cheaper than a cannon tower. Though i would reccomend a guard instead of a cannon.
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Fri Nov 08, 2002 11:25 am |
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Eradicate
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 5449
Location: Paulatopia |
All you really need to do is to effectively counter that strat then its GG 4 u.
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Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:22 pm |
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]\/[esSiah
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quote:
Originally posted by Gateway5000
All they have to do is kill you early. Or upgrade and get ogers before going hold with a scout to make sure u dont rush and your strat is effectively countered. A cat could also counter your strat. They just have to hit soft targets. You may want to try switching it up. Like valk does . he makes 3 grunts at 12 and a cannon and hids his grunts at top to c if they try to break it. And if your not worried about early ot a cat is cheaper than a cannon tower. Though i would reccomend a guard instead of a cannon.
I love how people try to give sure fire ways to attack a strat they have never played against. I am not stupid and I have played this game long enough to be able to see what is effective and what isn't. 1 cat cannot beat it. 2 cats I don't think they could get in time with enough grunts to hurt me. Also, they have to break my choke to see what I am doing. Meaning they need to get enough grunts to push me back.
Let me reiterate that I am not stupid. I am going to keep scouting my opponent to see what he is doing.
#1, cat is cheaper to get yes, but it is a shitty defense against a guy with a cat of his own.
#2 I'd own you no matter what strat I did
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Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:43 pm |
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sabbey ~
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quote:
Originally posted by Gateway5000
All they have to do is kill you early. Or upgrade and get ogers before going hold
How do you get ogres before going hold ?!??!???????????????????????????????????????????????
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Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:11 pm |
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KGBagent22
Joined: 06 Mar 2001
Posts: 77
Location: Bremen, Germany |
Well, if you see that your opponent has a cannon, you know he wonīt get mass grunts. If you think you canīt break in with cats in time, why not just do the same thing without a cannon?
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Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:05 pm |
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BiZaTcH
Joined: 23 Sep 2000
Posts: 3143
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I think you missed his point ..
_________________
http://www.blizz-craft.com
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Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:03 pm |
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Guest
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go rax smith rax 9 peon stop or smith rax rax 9 peon stop... either way you just break the choke early and put grunts on him 2 at a time non stop
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Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:15 pm |
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Guest
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Go :
Farm
Rax
Rep Rax
2nd Farm
2nd Rax
Smith
Farm
After 1st Rax done send both peons to Rep 2nd Rax
Farm
Upgrade
Guaranteed, if played properly - It owns all the time.
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Sun Jan 12, 2003 12:28 am |
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Guest
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Your an idiot. NEVER EVER Make your farm with your 2nd farm with your 3rd peon. You'll be behind.
Farm
Rax
Farm
Smith
Rax
When First Rax finishes Rep smith
When smith finishes put both to gold.
2nd peons keeps making farms unless your peon stopping.
Upgrade shield/weapon/weapon/shield If its 12/2
If he chokes you can you find yourself trapped chopout of the back of 12 or 2 and rape him clean. 
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Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:13 am |
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Eradicate
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 5449
Location: Paulatopia |
I always get run over when I p stop. I find it best just to lvl 5 rush hard and rep like a bitch.
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Mon Jan 13, 2003 6:03 pm |
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Guest
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the way to win with p stopping is to get on them with your first 4 and to keep on them non stop.. if you try to save up at all it's just not going to work
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:35 pm |
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IndyStorm
Joined: 15 Nov 2002
Posts: 255
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada |
Whats a rush ?!?! 
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Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:14 am |
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Eradicate
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 5449
Location: Paulatopia |
I know how to p stop, it just doesn't fucking work. Any good player can defend it and then run over you with lust.
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Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:51 am |
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IndyStorm
Joined: 15 Nov 2002
Posts: 255
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Bobbo
I don't think repping is too good of an idea if you 2rax like that. You might as well just not bother. I only rep my smith if I 1rax, which you can do at 12 easilly as long as you make a 3on2 choke. Be sure to make a mill early on too to make an axer or two to hold off a hard rusher. But at 2 I guess you need to 2rax just in case 12 rushes hard since you can't pull off a decent choke fast enough. Boo!  And you don't ALWAYS have to cat rush... you could just hide grunts outside and go lust/ogres.
As the Strat you're replying to, the "rep rax" one, I usually do that ...... @ 2 or 12, i find that all the times i've tried it, by the time im done makin my 5th grunt and nearing lvl 2, when I go scout either 2/12 and they 1 rax, they usually almost every time only have 3 grunts. And they usually get owned all the time. either that or slowed to shit but in the end the 2 rax tends to overpower unless they go heavy d. But than again Im a newbie and i shouldnt talk 
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Sat Jan 18, 2003 7:01 pm |
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chayliss
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quote:
Originally posted by Gateway5000
Or upgrade and get ogers before going hold
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:32 pm |
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Mr_Trouble
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Hey Messiah, what is the link to your site again? I want to know the hotkey arrangement so I can use it on freecraft (I am now running linux). I see you are playing again. Me Joe and my new roomate challenge you to a duel.
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Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:11 am |
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Rehost
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 377
Location: Michigan, USA |
Hey he challenges you to a duel!
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Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:46 am |
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x)XioN(x
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Aurora, Colorado |
Re: 12 vs 2: defense
Messiah has a point in this 12:2 war. I have tried this strategy many times, and it seems to work. Thanks for the strat Messiah.
_________________
The only King.
~XioN
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Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:23 pm |
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Eradicate
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 5449
Location: Paulatopia |
God your name is so gay.
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Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:53 pm |
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Fast Luck
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 22805
Location: Penis |
I'm not sure I understand what Messiah is proposing. He says the cannon goes between where your grunt stands ground and where they would be attacking from. Why can't they just attack your cannon with grunts? You said it is partially walled, what do you mean?
_________________
i zero bagged your mother
quote:
Originally posted by Fast Luck
hassan-i-asher: majorin in takin pictures
dreamin bout wayne from catalina wine mixers
listen little friend stay outta the deep end
cuz you're less street than vampire weekend
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Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:30 pm |
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ShoeMan
Joined: 13 Dec 2001
Posts: 1128
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quote:
Originally posted by Gateway5000
All they have to do is kill you early. Or upgrade and get ogers before going hold with a scout to make sure u dont rush and your strat is effectively countered. A cat could also counter your strat. They just have to hit soft targets. You may want to try switching it up. Like valk does . he makes 3 grunts at 12 and a cannon and hids his grunts at top to c if they try to break it. And if your not worried about early ot a cat is cheaper than a cannon tower. Though i would reccomend a guard instead of a cannon.
the utter stupidity of this post will amuse me forever
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Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:44 am |
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Ernie
Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Olive Branch, Mississippi |
I just do what he does and see who wins  oh and why tell sum1 ur strat...pfft let dem figure it out
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Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:24 pm |
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-AcidGangsta-
Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 408
Location: Baltimore, MD |
Re: 12 vs 2: defense
quote:
Originally posted by ]\/[esSiah
The trend today in a 12 vs 2 war is to attack with a lot of grunts and a cat. ANyway, I have always hated this strategy because both sides end up doing the same thing and it is boring. So I thought it over and came up with a new defense. The main idea is to have a semi-walled, reparable cannon tower gaurding your town and the choke for your grunts behind the cannon. By behind I mean for the cannon to be between where the attacking cat could be and where your grunts would stand ground. He has no way to break your choke without bringing his cat into the cannon's sight. If he tries to attack the cannon with the cat you can repair it safely. If he attacks the peons repairing it he will be hit by the cannon.
I have only created a layout and build order for this at 2. I set the choke point by the gold mine and the cannon tower to the left of this. I see no way to attack this. I up to hold at about 17-19 peons chop the bottom of 2 and start pumping ogres. When they see they cannot attack me they try to choke the front entrance. The chop out makes this useless.
I have only tried this out twice on actual people. The first time was against Yah`mon and the 2nd was against Sky Angel. Both games I won rather easily. Yah'mon tried to break my early choke at the entrance of 2 so I fell back to my cannon tower which was up at about 6 grunts. He then choked the entrance and I chopped out under 2 and ogre rushed him. Sky angel tried to grunt rush me with a cat which was futile and ended abruptly.
It is a cool strategy, with lots of possibilities. Maybe I will post a picture of my layout at 2.
messiah that strat would get run over with ease. a few gaurds on you're barracks and farms would be the end of you. not to mentino 2 cats would break ur choke of the grunts, even if the cannon attacked the cats. thats where the grunts and gaurd towers would come in. sorry if i dashed you're strategy. =]
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Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:04 am |
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]\/[esSiah
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Re: 12 vs 2: defense
quote:
Originally posted by -AcidGangsta-
messiah that strat would get run over with ease. a few gaurds on you're barracks and farms would be the end of you. not to mentino 2 cats would break ur choke of the grunts, even if the cannon attacked the cats. thats where the grunts and gaurd towers would come in. sorry if i dashed you're strategy. =]
Works best at 12 actually and I haven't had much opportunatey to perfect it. I also think getting two cats would be too slow. You'd tie up your raxes and barely have any men.
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Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:04 pm |
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-AcidGangsta-
Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 408
Location: Baltimore, MD |
nah gaurd towers and 2 cats along with 15-20 grunts lvl5 would do the trick. =]
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Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:25 am |
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]\/[esSiah
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by -AcidGangsta-
nah gaurd towers and 2 cats along with 15-20 grunts lvl5 would do the trick. =]
Why stop there, Guard towers, cannon towers, 10 cats, 40 lvl 5 grunt, and one archer would do the trick. Of course, by the time you got all that I'd be too strong. The cannon tower is just a stall that prevents you from attacking me with any easily obtainable offense. While you are building an offense I am also getting stronger.
If I still played this game I'd be able to be more specific. Fact is, I haven't worked out all the timings involved with this. However, it is my opinion that by the time you got 2 cats and enough grunts to break in I'd be stronger than you.
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Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:07 pm |
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ORKinman
Joined: 06 Apr 2001
Posts: 1130
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Re: 12 vs 2: defense
quote:
Originally posted by ]\/[esSiah
The trend today in a 12 vs 2 war is to attack with a lot of grunts and a cat. ANyway, I have always hated this strategy because both sides end up doing the same thing and it is boring. So I thought it over and came up with a new defense. The main idea is to have a semi-walled, reparable cannon tower gaurding your town and the choke for your grunts behind the cannon. By behind I mean for the cannon to be between where the attacking cat could be and where your grunts would stand ground. He has no way to break your choke without bringing his cat into the cannon's sight. If he tries to attack the cannon with the cat you can repair it safely. If he attacks the peons repairing it he will be hit by the cannon.
I have only created a layout and build order for this at 2. I set the choke point by the gold mine and the cannon tower to the left of this. I see no way to attack this. I up to hold at about 17-19 peons chop the bottom of 2 and start pumping ogres. When they see they cannot attack me they try to choke the front entrance. The chop out makes this useless.
I have only tried this out twice on actual people. The first time was against Yah`mon and the 2nd was against Sky Angel. Both games I won rather easily. Yah'mon tried to break my early choke at the entrance of 2 so I fell back to my cannon tower which was up at about 6 grunts. He then choked the entrance and I chopped out under 2 and ogre rushed him. Sky angel tried to grunt rush me with a cat which was futile and ended abruptly.
It is a cool strategy, with lots of possibilities. Maybe I will post a picture of my layout at 2.
That's a good strategy for defending in a 2v2 where you're the rusher at 12/2 and your ally is two halling. It is not good for attacking, or 1v1's. There is a reason everyone gets a cat and grunts, it's because it's the best strategy in a 12/2 war.
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Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:39 am |
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]\/[esSiah
Guest
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Re: 12 vs 2: defense
quote:
Originally posted by ORKinman
That's a good strategy for defending in a 2v2 where you're the rusher at 12/2 and your ally is two halling. It is not good for attacking, or 1v1's. There is a reason everyone gets a cat and grunts, it's because it's the best strategy in a 12/2 war.
It isn't good for attacking immediately but that doesn't mean you opponent can totally neglect you as you will walk over him at hold or with a rush(rushing with a cannon isn't that big of a deal). Of course your opponent could double your partner very early. But the same problem exist with lusting, ogre rushing and 2 halling. I will still run over 2 though if his partner doesn't help him out.
In 1v1's the idea is that you throw your opponent out of their game. You stop any immediate attacks. The position is one with a lot of potential power that can explode at hold or fort. You give up the immediate cat and mouse game(suiting pun) for a strong attack dictated by you later on. If they ever want to attack you they must first concern themself with the cannon (which costs them res to remove, slowing their tech/unit production).
Because something isn't being used doesn't mean it isnt' good; it just means it hasn't been fully explored. 90% of the warcraft players out there just copy others strategies. They learn by example and contribute nothing of their own to the game.
Give me 20 to 40 games with this and I am pretty sure i could get all the timings down and be able to counter any attack against it. I am not yet sure the best way to unleash the potential power in the position but I know I could work something out.
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Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:13 pm |
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