i know becuase of the ladder speed that unit control is so much easier. So which is better ...mages or lust when you have the new found unit control and all.

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"dot dot dot"

Well, it all depends who's using what. Hhehee lust in the hands of a newbie does no good against mages in the hands of someone good. But on ladder speed, there isn't really a huge advantage for either. Both have their ups and downs. It all depends on the map and who you're playing. If its a trail type map, mages can do some owning. Wide open maps, ogres with lust do good because its easier to avoid being wrecked by blizzard.

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-Kith-Kanin-

Skip Mages and get to know your sappers well.They much more powerful then mages as good orc players will never give you the chance to use them unless you are dam pretty sure that you can beat them wif your mages and for that to happen you need to get dam fast inorder to get to mages.Orc players tend to get to lust much much faster then humans getting to mages unless you can stall the guy from getting lust.Bottomline best solution is never give them a chance to lust.As such your sappers comes handy and you should know when and how to use then effectively or else you have lost the game.

Peace

God Bless

HolyPaladin

Dunno if I agree with holy paladin. I definately don't agree that sappers are more powerful. Anyone who goes 2 barracks before their mound will have plenty of ogres by the time the saps come.
I suggest you go read Kiths human guide, (or re-read it). You'll learn all about Blizzard, and defending lust there.

As for me...I usually get my alter first, and temples after. Sometimes when I have gold, or have lost some important bulidings, I will go all dks/mages.

Well holypaladin, go read the humans thing like Axo said. If you're still not convinced you can play me as many times as you want to and I'll show you that I can beat you to blizzard everytime. Its just a matter of simple logic. Two mage towers repaired with 5 peasants on each. Compared to an altar repaired with 10 peasants. I research blizzard while you research Ogre mage....AND I build a mage while you research ogre mage. So I most likely will have 2 mages with Blizzard, AND slow before you even hit me with lust. =( But as we all know that sin a perfect theoretically game. Sometimes you might not even get lust, sometimes I won't even get castle. But in general mages are faster than lust.

Hmm... well in all honesty, for the average player, it is much easier to win with lust than with mages... lust is like.. lust up go in, destroy. Mages require more finesse because you have more to work with.

As for sappers... they're great, but not nearly as powerful as mages. This is due to the fact that sappers expend and mages can be reused... so if the first mage you build manages to kill say, 3-4 peon lines, you've gotten back more than 8 times the cost of that mage... whereas maybe you get to destroy 4 farms (best case scenario) w/ your sapper... but that's it, your sapper is done. I think what makes sappers *seem* more powerful is the fact that they come earlier in the tech tree.... but hey, farms can be replaced as long as your peons are mining... peons can be replaced as long as you have gold or peons mining.. and if your peons are killed? well.. you can't replace peons OR farms Seems like a better tradeoff to me.

Imnsho, the learning curve for mages is huge compared to the learning curve for lust. But if both players are excellent, then the disparity isn't too much. Given two intermediate players, one with mages and the other with lust, the lust will win. Though I have seen top players (human) losing to equally good players using orc because when games are that close, lust still holds quite a bit of weight

What it comes down to (for me) is that Lust is easier, but mages are more fun

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Noss
Shadow Council

I actually had an interesting game with sappers a little while ago..I was small 5, acid gansta was 4, my pard wulfgar was 2, and ag's pard deathsiny was 12..wulf outrushed and killed 12 while I catted 4. ag crippled my gold at s5, so I wasnt really doing anything, and ag managed to get my cat with one of his own. Ag was humans btw. Well, with siny out of the game, and me not doing much, they went at it 1vs1..wulf helped s5, but I wouldnt really do anything until game was over. So I went to have some fun..I went hold and built 4 alchemist labs and just sapped ..lesse. Ag's 3 raxes, smith, 3 farms, and mage tower. For me, I only see a few useful purposes to sappers. First, a really quick sap into a power. Second, used with an ogre rush. And third, to get into a well defended expansion, assuming he didnt double wall it.

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Mage Guild

I do agree that mages are the most powerful units that humans have but if you were to compare with orcs,the dam orges have lust and runes which are more of an offensive kind and paladins spells are on the defensive.Orcs players are much faster to lust the mages getting to blizzard and invisiblity.What I am trying to say that no doubt sappers are the strongest unit,this units helps to break down the opponent defences if the person happens to duals and wallin both mines.In cases like this sappers will prove to be much more useful then mages.Anyway I will take kith's advice and look into his guide for a better perspective of your human strat guide.A combination of knights and sappers would prove deadly if one know how to use them well.Thanks.


Peace

God Bless

HolyPaladin

Sappers own. Period. They are totally different from mages so you can't really compare them. They have different purposes. Sapz are that quick, wham bam, anoying, building buster. While mages are more on the lines of unit ownage. They can drop buildings just as well but takes more time and more mages. I use both.

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"dot dot dot"

Yes it's true that sappers may be on a different level of comparison than mages.. So let's compare strategical consistence then. The original topic of this thread was sappers/mages vs. lust; ad I have seen mages consistently defeat lust, however I've yet to see sappers dictate the game in which lust is a factor as much as mages have.

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Noss

Sappers cannot actually "defeat" bloodlust, instead, they are to be used to either slow your opponent from actually getting lust or slowing your opponents ability to make ogres (destroying the mound/blacksmith/barracks) Should the opponent actually stabalize himself, and just about any decent player will do so very easily, against sapper attacks, you will be left very far behind and will ultimately lose. However, mages will be a unit of power from the second you train your first one in until the end of the game. Why not combine the two and sapper to slow the enemy from getting lust and to get a few mages and blizzard out before he can do anything.

The issue of using sappers depends very much on your scouting.By using the 1st peon to scout after the 1st farm is done, you'll be able to know what your opponent will be doing or maybe a rough idea of what he is gonna do.From there you can decide as to whether you wanna use those sappers or switch to some other strats.However should if one duals,then sappers would be a good idea.Mages are pretty good units as compared to sappers but the trouble is,getting to mages is a task that you may need to out pace your opponent to lust.Chains 7 min lust will prove how fast they can get to lust and I think humans have no way to get to mages in 7 mins.Playing humans needs to have a variety of skills in using the kind of units depending on the map.Many orc players have then been able to modify Chains strat of the 7 min lust into other good strats like 2 hall grunt rushing.Anyway it was good discussion how this thread.


Peace

God Bless

HolyPaladin

Listen, yer full of it. =/ trust everyone in here when we say that you can get mages just as fast (usually faster) than lust. Its not that hard. How long have you played for? We've played for 6 years. WE know. I mean 6 years equals definetly over ten thousand games. Easy. So if you can play over ten thousand games and you find that lust is still faster, than you're my god.


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-Kith-Kanin-

rofl....
my posts own and my mages own :P



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"dot dot dot"

7 minute lust? Hrm, using my strat, my fastest lust time is 5 min 40 secs.... and thats a lvl 5 rush/lust

and yes, everyone is right by saying you can get mages faster.... you dont have to wait for one upgrade to upgrade another... like lust..... with mages, you can upgrade blizz and get 2 mages, and get slow before the orc player gets lust...

and btw, Paladin, you talk like a writer of a cheesy 4 year old warcraft 2 strat guide.... test shit out before you try and argue with people who have been playing the game since it came out

sypher be nice everyone is entitled to their opinion. And your '5 minute rush/lust with lvl 5 grunts' is a lot of bs if you ask me. Hippo used to do a 4 minute lust strat, and that was tops. If you can do a GOOD lvl 5 rush with lust in 5 minutes then I'd like to see it. :\

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Mage Guild

lust in four minutes? bs....well maybe with absolutely no defense, level 1, and two ogres - lemme try it(i never timed how fast i could get lust before)

umm can you plz show me the 5 minute lvl 5 rush/lust? maybe 2 grunts i'm guessing?

i read chains' 7 minute lust and i know i had an order a lil more efficient, with like 2 peons less.....i think that 6 minutes is tops with a catapult

To the original poster: there's your answer right there--play humans! Look at all these orc players sweating it out in front of their computers as they peruse their stopwatch for the Lust timer!

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Noss

haha noss. I never actually timed myself, I could care less the exact time it takes me to get lust. However, for bizatch - have you ever played hippo? and if so, have you ever played him when he does his 4 minute lust? If not, then don't try any "4 minute bs.." "must be with no defense.." because you obviously have no clue. That's like saying $hazm hacks because you claim he didnt send you any ss.

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Mage Guild

$hazm hacks without a doubt..no more questions

i just spent like an hour trying to see if there was any possibility of getting lust in under 5 minutes

soth there isn't...ur gonna have to trust me on this 1

u have to make:
4 Farms
a Town Hall
Peons
Ogres
A Barracks
Blacksmith
Catapult
Lumber Mill
Level Upgrades
Stronghold
Ogre Mound
Fortress
Alter of Storms
Research Bloodlust
Research Mages

dude there is no way he could possibly afford all that & then get lust in four minutes:
Town Hall used to take like a minute and a half
Farm - 25 Seconds
Barracks - 50 Seconds
Stronghold - 40 Seconds
Mound - 35 Seconds
Fortress - 40 Seconds
Alter of Storms - 10 Seconds(repaired)
Mages - 1 Minute
Bloodlust - 20 Seconds
that's with absolutely no pauses, which is impossible..and together that is:
4 and 2/3 of a minute....without the Town Hall - impossible bro

Biz, there are some ppl better than you =P take that into account and you might understand how hippo did it in record time. Also, you might try asking him how he did, or to play him 1vs1 and ask him to do it. I haven't seen him in months myself, but.. He's prolly pretty rusty now anyhow. But to think something is absolute because you cant do it is ignorance, plain and simple.

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Mage Guild

4 minute or 5 minute or 7 minutes, who cares? Do you honestly think anyone who's really good is gonna lose to a piece of crap 4 minute lust rush? No? I could have like 20 level 5 ogres and not even go fort and his little 4 minute lust rush would get owned. If it was such a great strat, everyone would do it. But the fact is, no one does it. So what if you can get lust in 4 minutes. Lust doesn't always win games, so getting in 4 minutes won't do dick.

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-Kith-Kanin-

well yeah i relized that it would be pointless, but soth just because he may have been a better player than me doesn't mean what he does is possible.

soth it really isn't, there is no possible way to get lust in under like 5:00 - that's with absolutely no defense, and that's with 2 ogres and level 1....soth maybe you were a newbie and it seemed very incredible how fast he got lust when you played him years ago....i timed it and i can't break 5:15 =P

I have been reading these forums since they were up, just never had anything good to say. I mostly want this post addressed to bizatch, but I'll keep the spirit of this string alive.

Kith, you are half right. A 4 minute lust would be pointless in a 1v1. In a 2v2, if doneright, it is unstoppable, lets not forget you can lust an ally. I used to use chains quick lust in 2v2s, it rocked.

Bizatch, how do I put this? You are the laughing stock of this "community" and you will remain to be so until you stop trying to fit in, which is just pathetic seeing that this is the internet. If you do not believe me, read your stupid ass posts on this whole forum, all you do is agree with people and tell them how great they are. A few words of advice, and think about it before replying and defending yourself. Keep it real. I'm not saying start bashing people and argue with everyone. But:

"well yeah i relized that it would be pointless, but soth just because he may have been a better player than me doesn't mean what he does is possible."

Come on dude, take one side and stick to it please, or explain why you realized it was pointless (and dont say because of kith's post). And get off soth's and everyone elses dick. Yah soth is cool, why remind him every post?

KEEP IT REAL

omg can i say dumbass?
umm in one of the higher posts i said something like "yeah maybe if he got no defense and level 1 and 2 ogres" i think u could see that would be about the same thing as saying pointless....

next, you are right that if you could get about 6 Ogres with lust and then your ally gets tons of ogres, and u lust them, it would be a good idea. i always used to do that w/ oddeye when we were neighboors.....

but anyways, still, soth is wrong. there is no possible way to get bloodlust in 4 minutes. i actually looked at it "scientificly" and then found the absolute fastest way to get bloodlust with 2 ogres - you can't do it in under 4:45

sorry...

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Warcraft Haven -- The ULTIMATE Warcraft Resource: http://wchaven.wcnation.com

Have read the writeup of Kith-Kanin guide on humans.Will try to work on it.Guess I'll close my arguments on this one since its getting alittle messy here.Like soth said everyone has a right to his views.


Peace

God Bless

HolyPaladin

heh i prolly did, but i tried this scientifically in a LONG proccess...there is NO WAY it can possibly be done. Soth you cannot get lust in under 6 minutes if you get a catapult as defense and get 5 level 5 lusted...go try it

biz do you remember when you were a newbie and after you got raped at a 12/2 war u said "omg he hacks theres no way he could get that many grunts so quick."

Point Made.

Don't knock it till you try it son.



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Mage Guild