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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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DT Rush
I'm really surprised at how many people lose to a fast DT rush. Like I'm hardly master league or anything, but my last 10 games all I did was dt rushes and I won them all.
One zerg came close because he had sunkens at his entrance, but I warped in behind and raped his base.
Even Terran I was able to beat with a proxy rush and then into DT's/stalkers/zeals.
They're so strong and you can get them so fast. The poor zergs I've been playing I've been rocking their main before they even get to tier 2, and the toss are just folding like crazy.
Fun cheese for newbie me.
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Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:26 pm |
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kublikhan
Joined: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 2849
Location: Schaumburg, IL |
I was watching KHB's stream one game where the other guy DT rushed. He saw it coming and threw down a bunch of spores and sunkens. So the guy merged his DT into archons. Then warped in a few support units and raped him that way instead. Don't forget that little trick if they managed to stop your initial DT rush.
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Give me a lever long enough and I shall move the world. - Archimedes
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:28 am |
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Sypher
Joined: 18 Sep 2000
Posts: 5698
Location: Detroit, MI |
is KHB streaming again?
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"I tend to thougoughly enjoy my encounters significantly more with 120+ types, as I find them more stimulating. 100-110 people are okay too operating at full capacity." - Paper_Boy
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:41 am |
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kublikhan
Joined: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 2849
Location: Schaumburg, IL |
Dunno, that game I mentioned was awhile ago.
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Give me a lever long enough and I shall move the world. - Archimedes
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:22 am |
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$paCe
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 4911
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I woulda pegged kith for a dt rusher. Probably has a big ass smile on his face every time he warps them in. Concentrates on cheese instead of getting good at the game, and finds that entertaining.
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[quote="turtleman@can"]shotgun doesnt hack, i trained him in the arts of homosexuality[/quote]
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:26 am |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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quote:
Originally posted by $paCe
I woulda pegged kith for a dt rusher. Probably has a big ass smile on his face every time he warps them in. Concentrates on cheese instead of getting good at the game, and finds that entertaining.
Naw. I was tired of doign the same 'ol shit. 4 gateway push vs toss, 3 gateway mass sentries into robo vs terran, 3 gateway robo push vs zerg OR forge/cannons/FE and push.
The game was becoming boring and nearly the same all the time. I haven't played a single person I can't outmacro yet, but when I lose it's usually the micro.
So I'm focusing more on early pushes, proxies, dt rushes, to gain the map control and then outmacro the fuck out of them. The one zerg I played I dt warped (with the flying warp thingy) into his main because he had sunkens at his XP. I took out his main, and a lot of buildings, which enabled me to expand all over and then when I did my final push it was a cake walk.
Same with Terran. I did a proxy, and built second pylon at his entrance so he can't wall properly, leave one space between everything, then pumped zealots and take out their depot, force them to lift the rax, and fall back to their bunker. Harass scv's, all the while I expand and went DT's which gave me massive map control (3 expansions to his 1). Then I just rolfstomped him with shear numbers.
It'll fail I'm sure, but for me it's about changing the game up, and gaining some map control. If I mix in zealots, stalkers, and 4-5 DT's, I rape the shit out of a terran force that I was normally losing to by trying to do the same thing with sentries, zeals, and stalkers.
PLUS! It forces the Terran to waste his energy on scans, rather than warping in the OP mules to outfarm every race.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:11 pm |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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Also, I don't make the dark temple at my base. I build a proxy pylon in the middle of nowhere and make the temple there along with the other building (I forget it's name but you need it before buildign a temple).
So really, even if they do scan me they won't necessarily know it's coming unless they're a better player and can figure out something is up.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:35 pm |
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foonat
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 7716
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quote:
Originally posted by $paCe
I woulda pegged kith for a dt rusher. Probably has a big ass smile on his face every time he warps them in.
LOL
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:46 pm |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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quote:
Originally posted by Picka_materina
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
So really, even if they do scan me they won't necessarily know it's coming unless they're a better player and can figure out something is up.
Just by scanning your base seeing your buildings he knows what you're doing. Same as you can know what he's doing by just probe scouting and getting in in time and then later stalker poking.
He might be suspicious, but he won't know for sure unless he finds the proxy pylon with the Dark Temple and Twilight Council. It's the same as doing a hidden rax rush in war2. You might think somethings up but until you find them you won't know for sure.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:32 pm |
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Picka_materina
Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 2014
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No, he will 100% set up a turret at around 6, 6.30. Ask in teamliquid channel some high master/gm teran to play and dt rush him.
When you go dt, you usually have 3 gates at home and 2 gas. Well, 2 gass gives it away. Since you can't push the scv out before the stalker, and if you are dt rushing you have to take the second gas while cycore is building, even if you delay it, you have to take it before the stalker is out otherwise your dt hits at 9 minutes. Once he sees you take 2 gasses, he's already suspicious. Once he scans, or pokes with another scv, unless you have 5-6 sentries, or you didn't even mask it with a nexus, he's 100% sure its either a dt or void. In both cases, he needs the engineering bay and a turret.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:16 pm |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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quote:
Originally posted by Picka_materina
No, he will 100% set up a turret at around 6, 6.30. Ask in teamliquid channel some high master/gm teran to play and dt rush him.
When you go dt, you usually have 3 gates at home and 2 gas. Well, 2 gass gives it away. Since you can't push the scv out before the stalker, and if you are dt rushing you have to take the second gas while cycore is building, even if you delay it, you have to take it before the stalker is out otherwise your dt hits at 9 minutes. Once he sees you take 2 gasses, he's already suspicious. Once he scans, or pokes with another scv, unless you have 5-6 sentries, or you didn't even mask it with a nexus, he's 100% sure its either a dt or void. In both cases, he needs the engineering bay and a turret.
I think you're missing what I'm getting at.
DT rush will never work against Master/GM. I don't care if it does. I'm in platinum lol. If it works against my level and some diamonds, then I'm content. Which is why I'm saying that if they scan me, most don't pick up on it.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:35 pm |
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Shynko
Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 315
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Cheese works at every level, including GM. Please don't listen to him. Even in GSL, people dt rush, 6pool, proxy, cannon. The way you're doing it is proper, hiding the buildings and such. 2 gas won't give it away either because every toss build requires 2 early gas except 4gate.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:11 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
Yeah, I could see that working. I used to die to them occasionally because you're usually left just having to guess that it's coming and sacrificing your build order to stop it. I feel like it's a terrible game mechanic, reminds me of all the other insta-win strategies that they've slowly nerfed or moved away from with map size over time.
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:20 pm |
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Winchester
Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 980
Location: Melbourne, Australia |
When I scout people I like randomly building assimilators on peoples gas whenever im protoss just to be annoying just incase they ever tryed DT rushing me lol, then again im terrible at the game so dont try this at home
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:56 pm |
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eS[MaGe]
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 1434
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.02
I have to agree with Picka. I'm a terran and when I scout double gas I already know it's more then likely either DT's or a void ray all-in. Which both require the same response as Picka mentioned. As you advance through the leagues and learn the game you start to pick up on other races openings/timings and what you are actually looking for as you are scouting. You check things such as how much gas has been mined, how many pylons are inside the base, building placement, timing on the cybercore, see if the gateway is spinning, etc.
Anyways~
pz
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"<~KaNuKs~> Its just a game"
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Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:38 pm |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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Watched a ton of replays today. Seems like the most games that are being won at the pro level the toss are using dt's, then going into robo.
The dt's are forcing the terran to use their energy on scans rather than OP mules. Other thing I noticed is the medivac is fucking very OP. They should change the heal rate on it. It's like the majority of games, as soon as medivacs are on the field, the game is over within 2-3 minutes. If terrans don't get medivacs, then it's actually a fair game and lasts for awhile.
I think 2 minor changes would greatly increase balance. Mules last for 70 seconds instead of 90, and medivacs heal 3 health per 2 energy instead of 3 health per 1 energy.
I'm hardly in a position to be calling out for balance changes, but I think those 2 units are the biggest imbalances that Terran have right now and minor fixes would really balance things out imo.
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Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:58 pm |
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eS[MaGe]
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 1434
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quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
Watched a ton of replays today. Seems like the most games that are being won at the pro level the toss are using dt's, then going into robo.
The dt's are forcing the terran to use their energy on scans rather than OP mules. Other thing I noticed is the medivac is fucking very OP. They should change the heal rate on it. It's like the majority of games, as soon as medivacs are on the field, the game is over within 2-3 minutes. If terrans don't get medivacs, then it's actually a fair game and lasts for awhile.
I think 2 minor changes would greatly increase balance. Mules last for 70 seconds instead of 90, and medivacs heal 3 health per 2 energy instead of 3 health per 1 energy.
I'm hardly in a position to be calling out for balance changes, but I think those 2 units are the biggest imbalances that Terran have right now and minor fixes would really balance things out imo.
I have to disagree with you here. I'm pretty current with scene and watch quite a few games myself. Most pro players and protoss in general rarely even get a dark shrine. The current meta for PvT is "1Gate FE" vs "1Rax Gasless FE". Normally from there you typically see a transition into the ever so popular HT/Archon/Chargelot composition with an eventual tech switch into Colossi when the terran starts ghost production. However there are often times when the protoss will go for colossi first, followed up by HT/Archons. There are still some folks that enjoy executing various 2 base mass gateway(6+) timing-pushes as well. Upgrades play a very significant role in this match up with both terran and protoss favoring double engineering bays or dual forges.
You don't have to actually even make DT's to force a terran to burn scans if that's your goal. You can force scans by denying scouting and giving the terran lack of information. The terran has to know the composition of the army he is facing in order to know if he needs to stop medivac production for vikings or get ghosts first or go marine heavy or marauder heavy, and will need to burn scans later to distinguish when the tech switch will happen.
As for mules themselves, I feel they are balanced till late game when terran are able to drop multiple cc's and sacrifice SCV's for a higher army supply. However; the recent nerfs to the mule have made it slightly less of an impact. As for the early-mid game I find that they are more in tune and serve their purpose. Terran do not make harvesters as quickly as protoss or zerg due to the chronoboost and inject larva mechanics. Therefore terran typically have a lower SCV count then Probe/Drone count.
In PvT, there are phases of the game where each race has their timings and can take control of the map and force the other into a defensive posture. Early on protoss tend to have map control besides the odd random tug of wars around the watch tower. Which forces the terran to make bunkers and play defensive because stalkers out-range and out-run anything until you either finish stimpack or finish concussive shells and are able to clip a stalker. When Medivacs hit the field, the tables turn because the terran can now use stimpack more liberally and can exert map control and force the protoss into a defensive posture. As medivacs hit the field drops become a likely possibility which force the protoss to split his army in half and keep the stalkers in the main and zealot sentry in the natural to avoid damage. However this only lasts until the protoss get some AoE on the map. Either storm or colossi, storm being the more common of the two because of feedbacking medivacs and the potential archon while your waiting for storm to research. At this point in the game it becomes all about positioning the army and trying to force the opponent into an unfavorable one by Ghost/HT dances all the while trying to secure your 4th and prevent the opponents.
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"<~KaNuKs~> Its just a game"
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:08 am |
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$paCe
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 4911
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I agree with what mage said
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:14 am |
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eS[MaGe]
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 1434
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quote:
Originally posted by Lightbringer-
Is SC2 actually worth it for a casual 30mins - 1hour gamer per day (max) except weekends or not worth it as too much time to learn and train for execution?
Even playing that little just your experience with RTS games in general puts you at an advantage. It doesn't take long to learn, especially with available information. You can find VOD's anywhere, and you can learn a lot from certain casters really quickly. If you do pick it up and choose a race, just stick with a simple strategy until your able to execute it to the best of your ability. You will learn the game faster this way.
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"<~KaNuKs~> Its just a game"
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:16 am |
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$paCe
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 4911
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going from mastering war2, to learning sc2.. so easy. With sc2, pathing works, rally points, queuing.. very noob friendly. Protoss early game is the most like war2 out of all the races with microing zealots and having stalkers that are like high powered archers.
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:28 am |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Lightbringer-
How much play does the sc2 freeware allows?? Is it worth it using the free version?
edit:
Did a couple of reading...The free version might do it for me...What race is given free?
As long as its terrans or toss im good!
I've seen it on sale for 30 bucks - might as well just buy the game. The demo doesn't give u multiplayer.
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:23 am |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by $paCe
going from mastering war2, to learning sc2.. so easy. With sc2, pathing works, rally points, queuing.. very noob friendly. Protoss early game is the most like war2 out of all the races with microing zealots and having stalkers that are like high powered archers.
yeah sc2 is pretty similar to war2 so it's not hard to learn although the level of competition is on another level
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:24 am |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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I dunno. I just watched 20 games from MLG less than a month ago, and nearly every single one as soon as medivacs were on the field, the protoss lost within 2 minutes.
The only games that were somewhat close were when the protoss teched to DT's and used them to harass and keep the terran back until he could get Collosus out.
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Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:15 am |
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