Okay, I watched this replay and it got me thinking:

http://sc2casts.com/cast1789-oGsTheWinD-vs-Wacomm-1-Game-Battle.net-Starcraft-Game-Korean-Starcraft-Match

It is a TvZ with TheWind who is a top top zerg and a korean terran. In the replay, (the game is 57 game minutes long) you will see the terran player get to an army of about 140population, and he turtles up to a point where there is nothing TheWind can do. As the terran increases his army, the zerg sends continuous forces all over the map, but seiged tanks + buildings + thors in my opinion (and in this game) is impossible to beat in this situation. The terran does absolutely nothing to win the game, but rather just "doesn't lose".

IMO this is a game issue for a few reasons: 1) There can exist game states that are unchangeable and impenetrable; and 2) Terran is the only race that can turtle like this (and maybe only in TvZ). There is no similar situation.

I have also watched replays of top pros (I know the common players aren't that good) of PvZ where there are some things that are seemingly unstoppable, in that, not that the zerg couldn't win, but as the game progresses, when the build goes a certain way it seems like a player can lose because a certain build "counters" the certain other build.

Anyway, with people saying that zerg are OP, the mere fact that there exist games that are unwinnable no matter what units are made, is ridiculous.

And I won't even get into any all-in play that is incredibly potent, that terran and to some extent toss, don't have to face (with building wall-offs and 5 sentry opens).

on gow you just bring some cats or some dks and the lawls ensue

quote:

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Originally posted by AGNB
Okay, I watched this replay and it got me thinking:

http://sc2casts.com/cast1789-oGsTheWinD-vs-Wacomm-1-Game-Battle.net-Starcraft-Game-Korean-Starcraft-Match

It is a TvZ with TheWind who is a top top zerg and a korean terran. In the replay, (the game is 57 game minutes long) you will see the terran player get to an army of about 140population, and he turtles up to a point where there is nothing TheWind can do. As the terran increases his army, the zerg sends continuous forces all over the map, but seiged tanks + buildings + thors in my opinion (and in this game) is impossible to beat in this situation. The terran does absolutely nothing to win the game, but rather just "doesn't lose".

IMO this is a game issue for a few reasons: 1) There can exist game states that are unchangeable and impenetrable; and 2) Terran is the only race that can turtle like this (and maybe only in TvZ). There is no similar situation.

I have also watched replays of top pros (I know the common players aren't that good) of PvZ where there are some things that are seemingly unstoppable, in that, not that the zerg couldn't win, but as the game progresses, when the build goes a certain way it seems like a player can lose because a certain build "counters" the certain other build.

Anyway, with people saying that zerg are OP, the mere fact that there exist games that are unwinnable no matter what units are made, is ridiculous.

And I won't even get into any all-in play that is incredibly potent, that terran and to some extent toss, don't have to face (with building wall-offs and 5 sentry opens).

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Yep i agree with you that terran is imbalanced, every unit is good esp against Z. In a 2's i played with my mate (top 100 in NA) he played random and got zerg and i was zerg and the enemies were both Terran.

They build up an army of marauders marines medevac tons of Thor's and tanks.. they made a slow push towards us but since we were so much better we had 4 bases and tons of resesorses ..

It took 3 vollys of almost 200 pop of zerg units including ultralisks and broodlords to take out one 200 pop terran army per player.. Yep so balanced... We won in the end just barely stopping the push..

Thors and tanks just melt anything you throw at it seriously

Hydras roaches zerglings mutas all die basicly instantly

People say Zerg macro becomes unstoppable, but in that replay, TheWind used every zerg unit (every single one) including mass infestor mind control and worms and everything.

If standard terran play becomes that big mass of buildings/planetarys/tanks/thors/vikings... I honestly feel that late game TvZ could become unwinnable for Z.

It will lead to zerg's trying to play shorter games, even though terran's have the early game options ; )

wow u guys sound so bad at this game. I swear zergs will never stop QQing.

I just flipped through this game it was on LT we all know its terran fav map. Also this is only ONE FUCKING GAME. BTW zergs can turtle too and just harass with mutas.

Here is ONE GAME u can watch and see how zerg late game owns, Clide v Leenock Set3 http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1372 if you have a pass that is.


Also don't bring up 2v2 if you are going to talk about balance kyrl.uoson. And you said you won and its imbalanced
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Anti-Jabroni

I didn't watch the game but it sounds like the zerg didn't get any broodlords into play

Terran's turtling is the same in bw except instead of having dark swarm, zerg has broodlords

Also I think zerg rage so hard because I play zerg and have a hard time in the top diamond level, yet can instantly switch to terran without any real solid build orders and trounce people. I don't like playing terran though because I hate protoss all-in strats. (What most toss players feel is their only chance in this MU)

He got 6 broodlords with no coruptors behind rofl. And got owned by vikings. The zerg was stupid, and the teran played smart.
If he made 10 broodlords with coruptors would have been gg long time a go.
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turtleman you are joke talking about you can switch to terran and still just own it up.
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Anti-Jabroni

It's true, terran are easy to play, I don't know how you want to argue against this commonly known fact.

quote:

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Originally posted by DrunkeN
wow u guys sound so bad at this game. I swear zergs will never stop QQing.

I just flipped through this game it was on LT we all know its terran fav map. Also this is only ONE FUCKING GAME. BTW zergs can turtle too and just harass with mutas.

Here is ONE GAME u can watch and see how zerg late game owns, Clide v Leenock Set3 http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1372 if you have a pass that is.


Also don't bring up 2v2 if you are going to talk about balance kyrl.uoson. And you said you won and its imbalanced

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we need that war2 channel bad
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Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.

honestly ANGB diagnosed the game wrong, the zerg player was as wasteful as he was aggressive.

he was a good player no doubt, but would send in flanks of muta and just lose them - no lings at all till it was predictably over in the late game. the zerg player never took his time and constantly made the worst battle decision ever, a xelnaga watch tower, covered with 10 seige tanks, and he runs armored ultras into it.. 5times!! O.o - his broodlord attempt was plain retarded, makes 8 and a-clicks like he just gg'd his opponent. again the terran give the zerg so much time to coordinate and gain more res - he was crafty with the baneling drops.. saw no hydra, didnt upgrade all units 3-3, ultimately, even as zerg is fasted paced and u can mass quickly, the zerg lack of patience ultimately defeated him, and being a 57min sc2 time game, i can understand how u'd get eager to end it rather than win.


however this isnt to say the terran was some turtling newb who got lucky. his thor drop was well done and experienced, his set up of macro was great, not confining himself to mineral bases [a big problem i think zerg have, they need the creep mobility cuz a zergs infrastructure is nothing compared to a terran or protoss's meaning more bases at a smaller size.. ei just the hatchery leaves zerg feeling scattered at times] and in this case, alot of dmg was soaked up by useless barracks and allowed good defensive positioning at the xelnaga tower.. side not, i've also started sealing my base off at the bottom rather than trying to have a cliff-sight advantage.. which u can still have, just a lil more room and i find u dont get sniped at all by ur ledge.. cuz u've now built down there.. kinda like farm prevention at the back of 5.


could the zerg of won? yes. infact i thought he was going to especially after he took out 9 and reds leading expo @ 12, but he played so so careless around the xelnaga tower over n over again, he had good tactics, but poor micro too. and u can always muta harass, sure a 2-3turrets/cannons will go up, but if u dedicated to muta, thats a total of 3 1sho.. im done typing - u get the point
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I am also a contradiction of my own lies

Kyr.Luoson 1v1??? DrunkeN.332

Its ok if you dodge I understand.

WTF is ur name and code so I can look up your gosu stats brah.
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Anti-Jabroni

quote:

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Originally posted by DrunkeN
Kyr.Luoson 1v1??? DrunkeN.332

Its ok if you dodge I understand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson

quote:

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Originally posted by DrunkeN
Kyr.Luoson 1v1??? DrunkeN.332

Its ok if you dodge I understand.

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Awww super butthurt so challanges to 1's, i dont even play 1's anymore due to imba terran (the race i'm assuming u play)

If u play protoss or zerg i'll play you, terran is too imbalanced and skilless for me to waste my time.

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Please never come back here again if you think T is THAT imba...because you clearly dont play the game, watch the game, understand the game.
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Anti-Jabroni

Am i dealing with a child? I dont care about being good at sc2 retard, get a life lolz.

I looked at your stats and you're in bronze league LOL even worse. Stop talking.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
Am i dealing with a child? I dont care about being good at sc2 retard, get a life lolz.

I looked at your stats and you're in bronze league LOL even worse. Stop talking.

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I'm not internet dumb i was obviously trolling your dumbass lmao
Posting an opinion does not equal how much you take a game seriously

Look at your profile, if anyone takes it too seriously it most definitely is you, lame terran faggot

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
I'm not internet dumb i was obviously trolling your dumbass lmao
Posting an opinion does not equal how much you take a game seriously

Look at your profile, if anyone takes it too seriously it most definitely is you, lame terran faggot

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Drunken and sparkz covered most of this but here are my observations from this game:

1. Lost Temple is a Terran friendly map, and the terran really took advantage of those cliffs.
2. When your enemy is going heavy thor/marine, a tech switch to muta is not the greatest idea. He lost a half dozen mutas to take down that first thor.
3. Terran was really on the ball with applying pressure, he kept taking killing/pressuring the zerg expantions. The zerg early game pressure was non-existent. The zerg did not make a real attack until 28 minutes into the game.
4. Terran was ahead on upgrades. By mid game we have 3/2 marines facing off agaisnst 1/0 mutas. Eeeew.
5. Another bad tech switch. He went from Ultras to Broodlords, with no corruptor support! Eeeew. He should have started with heavy broodlord/corrupter. He can do some heavy damage and force alot of vikings. After that tech switch to broodlords while the worthless vikings float around and do nothing.
6. Ultra drops did some nice damage for the zerg. Game momentum switched to favor the zerg and he could have taken the game here. But then the zerg player fell apart. All the zerg needed to do was keep the terran off of 11/12. Instead he suicided his infestors and mutas into the terran ball. Upgraded marines/thors/vikings vs 1/0 mutas. It was just painful to watch.

The zerg did not lose this game because of terran imba. Watch the Clide - Leenock series, those games were much better than this one.
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Give me a lever long enough and I shall move the world. - Archimedes

quote:

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Originally posted by DrunkeN

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
I'm not internet dumb i was obviously trolling your dumbass lmao
Posting an opinion does not equal how much you take a game seriously

Look at your profile, if anyone takes it too seriously it most definitely is you, lame terran faggot

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You dodge and get owned in the same thread...you should really stop posting here.

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holy,

@ sparkz, i might have diagnosed the game wrong, and I see where some people's points were coming from. I am not saying outright that it is imbalanced, what I am saying is that the game lapsed into a state that seemed boring as shit and would have been terrible to play against.

All aside that the zerg could have done some things differently, he did stay a base ahead, he did macro like a monster, and he was wasteful. Maybe MASS broodlords would have won it, but even with corruptor support, if the terran saw corruptors and got more vikings, he could perma suicide massive amounts of vikings at the corruptors/broods and still win out economically.

This wasn't a specific matchup as IMBA as much as certain situations that are imba.

Maybe it is the purpose of the game though, that after a player amasses an army of a certain composition, of a certain size, they already won the game and cannot be beaten from that point on and the losing player is at fault for not reacting quicker.

LOL that clide/leenock game was insane, its also up on www.sc2casts.com

Building 2 barracks and sending SCVS with marines is REALLY HARD.
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"I tend to thougoughly enjoy my encounters significantly more with 120+ types, as I find them more stimulating. 100-110 people are okay too operating at full capacity." - Paper_Boy

quote:

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Originally posted by AGNB
This wasn't a specific matchup as IMBA as much as certain situations that are imba.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Picka_materina

quote:

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Originally posted by AGNB
This wasn't a specific matchup as IMBA as much as certain situations that are imba.

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Nothing was imba there, zerg was stupid, teran was smart.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AGNB
In war 2 you build more oggies more lusties more dnd and u win or u dont and u lose, much better

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