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Originally posted by turtleman@can
also in terms of terran scans, they are basically like throwing away 100 minerals (considering the supply depot drop, counting 300 for a mule isn't really accurate)

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A mule mines 270 minerals, also it's been discussed and it's Potential loss, not actual loss of 270 minerals...

yeah you can't say that a mule is worth 300 minerals (or 270) because saying that would imply that you build one and 270 minerals gets deposited into your resource pool, and it doesn't come from a mineral patch on the map and nothing will stop it from being there. It's pretty short sighted argument considering the multitude of variables that come into play.

also as far as the scouting issue, my argument was the complexity of play involved in scouting. I don't doubt that protoss have weaker scouting than zerg later in the game, but zerg scouting involves complex gameplay mechanics. protoss scouting still involves building an invisible flying machine or the fastest flying unit in the game that has shields.

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Originally posted by turtleman@can
yeah you can't say that a mule is worth 300 minerals (or 270) because saying that would imply that you build one and 270 minerals gets deposited into your resource pool, and it doesn't come from a mineral patch on the map and nothing will stop it from being there. It's pretty short sighted argument considering the multitude of variables that come into play.

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Originally posted by 7VlesSiah

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Originally posted by turtleman@can
yeah you can't say that a mule is worth 300 minerals (or 270) because saying that would imply that you build one and 270 minerals gets deposited into your resource pool, and it doesn't come from a mineral patch on the map and nothing will stop it from being there. It's pretty short sighted argument considering the multitude of variables that come into play.

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I said it is closer to 300 than 100. 100 is a severe underestimate. The worth of an average mule will vary depending on how good a player is. Probably close to 220-230.

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You assume every mule gets to mine unharassed and every mule lives its full life. If there is more than one outcome for the life of a mule than the estimated value of a mule needs to incorporate all of them.
_________________
I have hacks in my brain and I use them.

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Originally posted by 7VlesSiah
You assume every mule gets to mine unharassed and every mule lives its full life. If there is more than one outcome for the life of a mule than the estimated value of a mule needs to incorporate all of them.

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So you are saying it is higher than 230. I don't argue that. Claiming a mule is on average worth 270 (the maximum it can mine) is idiotic.

I don't play SC2 much anymore. However, when I compare my skill and rankings with other people in this forum, I well above the average.
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I have hacks in my brain and I use them.

a mule mines closer to 400 on a high yield patch. it also might be mining minerals that would have been mined by SVCs anyway.etc etc etc
like I said, there's tons of variables that come into play. Just asking how many minerals a mule physically can mine in it's lifetime and accounting for the possible pre-emptive death of it is not considering most of the important factors that could be used to determine it's value. Most games, a terran would mine out his main with SVCs without the need of mules, and at certain points in the game may not have a running expansion, so essentially mules are only guaranteeing that you will get your minerals faster. They're also regularly used as proxy repair units and scouts. Most people use mules later in the game to quickly mine out undefended expansions, and drop a bunch of them at once. IF this is scouted, then they all die at once.

I don't really know what a mule is worth but I think it's probably just as idiotic to assume it's worth more than 230.

Man, you really under value them.
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I have hacks in my brain and I use them.

mules mine 270 minerals before destruction, that's what they are worth. What you allow happen to it after that is your business. What happens if it gets killed? Well that means an scvs life was sparred. How many minerals/gas could that scv have mined in its life time. You could get really abstract with this shit guys, leave it alone.


ps. noobs

Yeah logic doesn't come easy to Messiah (still thinks using a 3rd party hack that he made on wc2 isn't a hack when it clearly fits in the definition of a hack) Cant get any more idiotic then that


Messiah thinks he is above average on starcraft 2 is also hilarious

Messiahs rank - 1,135 points. Won 218, lost 197 (52.53% wins)
Luosons rank - 1,285 points. Won 53, lost 29 (64.63% wins)

Nice 52 percent bud, you sure are above average

percentages don't matter. If I didn't have a stint of 30 losses trying to play terran I'd be higher. Also, If I was playing as much as my bonus points allowed I'd be 1300 top 10. I find that top 5-10 diamond is easy to reach and maintain if you are playing.
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I have hacks in my brain and I use them.

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Originally posted by $paCe
mules mine 270 minerals before destruction, that's what they are worth. What you allow happen to it after that is your business. What happens if it gets killed? Well that means an scvs life was sparred. How many minerals/gas could that scv have mined in its life time. You could get really abstract with this shit guys, leave it alone.


ps. noobs

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Originally posted by 7VlesSiah
percentages don't matter. If I didn't have a stint of 30 losses trying to play terran I'd be higher. Also, If I was playing as much as my bonus points allowed I'd be 1300 top 10. I find that top 5-10 diamond is easy to reach and maintain if you are playing.

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I think $pace is pretty right. If you scan instead of call a mule, the opportunity cost is basically 270. If someone attacks your mule, that's an opportunity cost for them of whatever else they could've attacked instead... to think about it, it's probably better to kill an SCV than a mule, though that's not true for harassment

Yeah, the mule takes minerals SCVs would've gotten but you should always have a mineral patch anyway. Later in the game when you're getting the gold minerals it's worth even more
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i zero bagged your mother

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Originally posted by Fast Luck
hassan-i-asher: majorin in takin pictures
dreamin bout wayne from catalina wine mixers
listen little friend stay outta the deep end
cuz you're less street than vampire weekend

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Obviously mules are very good, but so are scans. sniping an ob with a scan is very worth it - this is a game where gas is much more important than minerals in nearly all situations. The instant intel that scans grant, and the ability to use them anywhere at any time (given you have energy) is quite powerful. It's not like you've "lost" 270 minerals, because the info scans give you are instant - not over time, this is a REAL TIME strategy game, you are not losing time making the tech to scout, you are not losing time remaking that sacrificed overlord. Obviously not one top player would use all his orbital energy purely on muling and it's for good reason - the instant information gained is of more worth.
Anyway terran are hardly crippled with scouting options to begin with, reapers, hellions, dropships and of course flying factories which can go through an entire base without much damage.

Oh and in regards to rating, obviously your division ranking is of absolutely no relevance at all. Rating points is a more accurate representation, and on top of that your hidden ELO (the official top200 list released by blizzard) is on top of that an even more accurate representation of your "ladder skill".

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Originally posted by Mez
Oh and in regards to rating, obviously your division ranking is of absolutely no relevance at all. Rating points is a more accurate representation, and on top of that your hidden ELO (the official top200 list released by blizzard) is on top of that an even more accurate representation of your "ladder skill".

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Originally posted by Sypher

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Originally posted by Mez
Oh and in regards to rating, obviously your division ranking is of absolutely no relevance at all. Rating points is a more accurate representation, and on top of that your hidden ELO (the official top200 list released by blizzard) is on top of that an even more accurate representation of your "ladder skill".

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Yah, rating means dick.

My current situation: I am at ~1250 rating. Constantly matched vs people who have 1400+ rating(it will even say I am slightly favored occasionally). If I lose, I lose 12-15 points. If I win, I get 12 tops. In the past week, I have only got 15 points once vs someone who had a 1750 rating(which I was rated 1200 at the time). This obviously isnt including situations where I get 24 points due to rested points.

Garbage system.

If my hidden ELO is high, point distribution should be affected by it. If I am slightly favored vs someone who is rated 200+ points higher thane me, I shouldn't take the 15 point hit if I lose. On the flip side, if I win, I should be getting more than 7-9 points. It should be the opposite of what it currently is.

While I am climbing the ladder, I am not doing so as rapidly as I should be. Losing 15 points to people who are rated 200-300 points higher than me is just unacceptable, imo.

Overall, the ladder is pretty pointless and isn't very representative of skill. I probably get cheesed or face a 1 base all in in about 60% of my games. Luckily this is making pretty good at stopping banshee + hellion + marine + scv all-ins. :p

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Originally posted by Mez
Actually apart from the fact the hidden ELO is... well hidden. It's actually pretty accurate, if you are not getting a lot of points from people with higher ratings than you it means THEIR hidden ELO is of similiar level to yours, if it matches you to someone with a higher ELO you will start getting 20 points+,obviously if you aren't on a huge win streak the matching system is doing the correct job by matching people within your ELO bracket, hence you shouldn't be receiving huge amount of points for wins. If you are favoured you have a higher ELO(and vice versa) - despite what actual points you both have.
Once you get into the top200 this is very easy to check - when you compare the amount of points you are getting vs their - and your - position within the 200.

It's not hard to climb this ladder, especially with the bonus pool which inflates the entire servers rating points all the time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sypher

quote:

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Originally posted by Mez
Actually apart from the fact the hidden ELO is... well hidden. It's actually pretty accurate, if you are not getting a lot of points from people with higher ratings than you it means THEIR hidden ELO is of similiar level to yours, if it matches you to someone with a higher ELO you will start getting 20 points+,obviously if you aren't on a huge win streak the matching system is doing the correct job by matching people within your ELO bracket, hence you shouldn't be receiving huge amount of points for wins. If you are favoured you have a higher ELO(and vice versa) - despite what actual points you both have.
Once you get into the top200 this is very easy to check - when you compare the amount of points you are getting vs their - and your - position within the 200.

It's not hard to climb this ladder, especially with the bonus pool which inflates the entire servers rating points all the time.

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I understand all this..

What bothers me is that I am essentially being punished on the display rating for having a high hidden rating. I am matching people equal to my "hidden" skill which is actually about 200-500 points above my displayed points. I am amassing points at the same speed they are, only behind them by a few hundred points.

They either need to change the ladder so that it displays your trueskill rating, or fix the points so that people in my position aren't falling behind, so to speak.

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Originally posted by Mez
That sure sounds like a whine post, if you are good enough you will easily gain rating points, the people with higher rating points with low elo are pretty much the mass gamers with 500-1000+ games played hence why they have so many points. Also maybe they are trying a new race, maybe they are having a bad day and are losing a lot of games/elo? In the end if you are winning consistently then you will be moving up the rating points consistently. If you're "stuck" at a certain rating point bracket then that is the rating point bracket you deserve to be in.


Once again using the top200 list as an example (since this is the only info where blizzard shows the ELO ratings), if you compare the lists to the server wide rating points, it is not that inaccurate, only the mass gamers are misrepresented, and even then in the vast majority of cases they still at least make the 200 list (usually 30-50 standings off their rating point standings however). Remember ELO's fluctuate alot between losing and winning streaks, example I win 3 games against the same person, first game I am earning 18 points, by the 3rd win I'm getting 12 points due to his ELO dropping and mine rising. If you're on a win streak, yes it will match you with people 200-500 points higher, but you are obviously not beating them consistently else you would have earned points and moved up.

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I believe that is exactly what you would expect. Ignore points for a minute and just look at the favored status. If you are newb stomping(you are favored to win), you receive less points when you win and lose more points when you lose. Both games you were newb stomping.

Conversely, when they are favored to win, you get more points if you win. Or you lose less points if you lose.

And if you are 50%, it sounds like the match making system is working perfectly as that is how it is designed to function.
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Give me a lever long enough and I shall move the world. - Archimedes

BTW, I agree with you Sypher about being able to see how you rate compared to everyone else. I am too much of a newb to ever make Blizzard's monthly or whatever top 200 list. I want to see my ELO rating damnit!
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Give me a lever long enough and I shall move the world. - Archimedes

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Originally posted by kublikhan
I believe that is exactly what you would expect. Ignore points for a minute and just look at the favored status. If you are newb stomping(you are favored to win), you receive less points when you win and lose more points when you lose. Both games you were newb stomping.

Conversely, when they are favored to win, you get more points if you win. Or you lose less points if you lose.

And if you are 50%, it sounds like the match making system is working perfectly as that is how it is designed to function.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sypher

quote:

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Originally posted by Mez
That sure sounds like a whine post, if you are good enough you will easily gain rating points, the people with higher rating points with low elo are pretty much the mass gamers with 500-1000+ games played hence why they have so many points. Also maybe they are trying a new race, maybe they are having a bad day and are losing a lot of games/elo? In the end if you are winning consistently then you will be moving up the rating points consistently. If you're "stuck" at a certain rating point bracket then that is the rating point bracket you deserve to be in.


Once again using the top200 list as an example (since this is the only info where blizzard shows the ELO ratings), if you compare the lists to the server wide rating points, it is not that inaccurate, only the mass gamers are misrepresented, and even then in the vast majority of cases they still at least make the 200 list (usually 30-50 standings off their rating point standings however). Remember ELO's fluctuate alot between losing and winning streaks, example I win 3 games against the same person, first game I am earning 18 points, by the 3rd win I'm getting 12 points due to his ELO dropping and mine rising. If you're on a win streak, yes it will match you with people 200-500 points higher, but you are obviously not beating them consistently else you would have earned points and moved up.

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I don't think you get it.

My Hidden ELO is rising/falling properly; however, my display rating is stagnant due to the points earned BASED on my hidden ELO.

Example:

Yesterday I beat this guy: http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1450292/Bisu

At the time, he had ~100 more points than me. I was "slightly favored" and I received 9 points for beating him.

Just think about it for a second. I have less points, am being noted as "slightly favored" yet I am earning nearly the minimum amount of points? In a ladder that makes sense, I would only be earning that few of points if I was ranked significantly higher than him. However, on the displayed rating, I am below him.

Example 2: I am at 1250 rating vs a player with 1400 rating. I am slightly favored. I lose and drop 14 points.

Again, think about it. I have less points, am rated higher and yet im losing near max points.

Tell me, how does this make sense?

I honestly don't care about my performance on ladder. I am perfectly content with being a 50% player. The only thing I ask is to see how I am ranked compared to others. With the results I am getting, it is damn near impossible to tell. I know I should be in the 1400-1600 range, but it would be nice to see what my absolute rating/rank is.

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Wow never saw that sc2 ranks site before, very interesting. That bisu guy's 1330 points put him at #118,247 in the world. At the time, my points were 1196, putting me at world rank of 916802. 2 interesting facts -

That places me (and anyone at 1200) at the exact median point total of all SC2 players worldwide out of 2 million.

Last night I played 5-6 games and jumped 100 points. So in 5 games I jumped about 600,000 rungs up the ladder, approximately 1/3 of the total latter size.
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Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.

anyone know how the divisions are distributed? 20% of the player base in each one? if 1200 puts you at the median of ALL players, then isn't it fucked up that 1200 is diamond? are there cases where 1200 is not diamond?